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When should a pup start responding to noises?
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Boeringer



Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: When should a pup start responding to noises? Reply with quote

I went to visit the puppies yesterday and now I'm starting to worry about deafness. They are 4 weeks old exactly. When all together in their pen, playing and yelping, if you clapped loudly they'd all stop instantly and be quiet. So from that I've gathered that their hearing must be developing. But when I had Bo out on is own he showed no signs of hearing anything, not a twitch of the ear or even a little jump if there was a loud bark/clap. So I really started to worry, but then I tried the same with another of the puppies - holding it while my mum clapped behind us and no reaction at all.

Should they be hearing by now, or is it just that they can only hear very loud noises?
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Maggi



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 3161
Location: Derbyshire

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They start to hear at about 3 weeks. To see if they can hear to start with it is better to wait until they are asleep and then make a noise. A puppy who can hear will wake and look about if you make a sudden high pitched noise. No one can tell just by that sort of testing if a puppy is uni lateral. Normally pups go for their BAER test at around 5 - 6 weeks, has the breeder told you when they are being tested?
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Boeringer



Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Maggi,
He's not having them BAER tested, but I think I will. We have talked about it though and he understands that if the puppy is deaf I won't be able to handle him. I thought it had to be 6 weeks, but if I can have it done at 5 weeks that's better. Is that too soon?
I'm going to see him again in a week or so, so just older than 5 weeks, I could schedule the test for then with a bit of luck.

Also...
He has a patch which I've read means it's less likely that he's deaf, but he also has blue eyes which means he's more likely to be deaf.
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Maggi



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 3161
Location: Derbyshire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid without testing there is no real way of knowing. In THEORY at least patching seems to reduce the likelihood of deafness but in practice it doesn't always.

It's not for me to question breeders personal decisions but I fail to understand why they are not having the puppies tested. A unilateral puppy is for all sensible purposes a hearing puppy and although he or she probably should not be bred from they will lead an otherwise perfectly normal life. A deaf puppy is another proposition. Some people do manage to successfully rear and manage deaf dogs it is a lifetime of special commitment and not for the average owner. It is not a requirement for a breeder to test their puppies (though in my opinion it should be) however if I were you i would ask them to re consider and in any case ask them to arrange for your puppy to be tested to give you peace of mind.

Both patching and blue eyes are breed 'faults'. These things in no way diminish the dog as a pet (I myself had a loved and adored orange dalmatian and also a patched one and they were the equals to the other more 'correct' ones) but it should mean that you are paying considerably less for the pup (I have no idea of the average price of pups now but to give you and idea 15 months ago I paid 600 for Caper - top breeding, from well known breeder, show potential pup, BAER tested and vaccinated and I'd have expected to pay a lot less than that for a patched or blue eyed pup).

Please make sure you are happy with all the conditions of buying your puppy before you go ahead. Your dalmatian will be apart of your family for the next 15 years and you want a happy healthy pet you are comfortable with. It is not unreasonable to expect the pup to be tested and hopefully the breeder can organise this for you even if he or she choose snot to test the rest of the litter.
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donothing



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 1190
Location: North

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject: Hearing Reply with quote

Can I ask if you have paid a deposit, and if you have is it an amount you can afford to lose? Personally I would never buy a pup who has not been hearing tested, if nothing else for peace of mind. Long story but the Bailey we have is not the one we originally reserved due to Bailey One being deaf.

At four weeks the pups should all be responding though occasionally can be far more interested in what is going on around them than listening to noises.

You could ask the breeder if you could borrow "Bo" and take him to a BAER vet and get tested (depending on which one you go to the cost is anything between 25 and 59 for the basic test) and agree with the breeder that if he is deaf you do not go ahead with sale. As hard as it might be it might be worth walking away. Paws crossed he was just distracted by being with you.

Good luck
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Flygirl



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 1146
Location: Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I absolutely agree that all puppies should be BAER tested, but don't agree that pet quality puppies should be substantially lower in price than show quality ones. They will all have come from the same health checked parents, have the same good health and temperament (hopefully) and will have cost the breeder the same amount to rear. I also believe that pet dogs have as much value to their owners as show dogs. I have a patched boy who is handsome, has the most wonderful temperament of any dog I have ever owned and I paid the same price for him as his siblings. I felt that this was fair.

I would not get a BAER test done before 6 weeks as there is a chance of a false negative result, i.e. deaf because the inner ear is not yet fully developed. I know of one pup that was tested as deaf at 7 weeks but was subsequently found to be hearing.

Good luck with your puppy! I am sure he will be fine, but I would make sure that the breeder gets him tested.
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Boeringer



Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that it might sound a bit funny written down, but I do trust the breeder. They really welcomed me into their home, and answered all questions fully. This is their 3rd litter, and they had the first tested but have never had a deaf dog (which worries me more as they've been quite lucky so far, so their luck might run out...). I had the chance to meet a 'puppy' from the last litter, and all the new owners are very happy. I have spoken to him about deafness and he knows that if the puppy is deaf I will not be able to take him home, and he will be staying with the breeder.


I think what I'll do is speak to him again and let him know that I will be having the puppy BAER tested at 6 weeks.
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Maggi



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
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Location: Derbyshire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flygirl - agree with what you say about the puppies costing the same to rear - but honestly as a breeder I do think pedigree dogs are every very expensive (not saying they are not worth it) and as a BREEDER I would charge less for a dog that could not be shown or bred from as I would not want to put the price for a pet dog beyond the reach of an ordinary family wanting a nice pet.
I do think those buying with the intention of showing and breeding are prepared to pay a little more to get EXACTLY what they want and in these financially difficult times I wouldn't like to think of puppies being too expensive and then when unsold almost given away in desperation. Perhaps i shouldn't have said a lot less, but certainly a reduction I want my own babies to go as pets first and foremost and I do think that many people overcharge for puppies (my opinion only).

Boeringer - you have met the breeder and if you are happy that is what matters, but I think you are wise to arrange the test yourself.
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Spotalot



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
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Location: Essex

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Boeringer,

All excellent advice has been given above and please don't think we all all being negative, but you do really need to be careful as dog owning, even when pups are bought from a reputable breeder can turn into an extremely expensive pastime as a lot of us older owners will have learned to our costs.
Once you have taken the pup into your home and your heart then it's your problem to deal with whatever comes along.

I know this is your first dog so we are all trying to help and as Maggi says a unilateral dal is a very acceptable pet but should never be bred from and a deaf dal is a full on full time commitment that even an experienced owner would find hard to train.

I'm sure the pups probably are fine but don't quite understand why you would buy from a breeder who is not prepared to have the pups tested when there are plenty of others around who are.

My first Dal was a uni (deaf in one ear) and I knew that, she was marginally cheaper and was not registered as such with the kennel club and I understood that she should not be bred from. She was a perfect pet and lived to 13 and a quarter.

My point is that if these people are good breeders they will want to make sure that any deaf dogs are removed from the breeding program.
If you are prepared to pay for this test yourself that is your choice but you really shouldn't have to. But will you be able to walk away if the pup is deaf?
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Anne Gurnsey



Joined: 03 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the "old days" I wouldn't call it the good old days we had to check our puppies hearing ourselves. We has one litter of 8 where two were deaf. They were also lightly spotted and blue eyed but that is not always the case. When all the pups are asleep in a pile they wake up when their hearing companions do. If a pup is asleep on its own you may be able to test it. Our two made a different sort of cry too.

We always tested ourselves but it was athree person job. One person held the pup on its own away from distractions, another stood /sat in front at least ametre away as observer. The third made a noise bhind the pup with something they could not feel by vibration. We used a spoon on a saucapan lid. The hearing pup blinks or winces, the deaf one doesn't. This does not detect unilateral hearing or hearing impairment just total deafness. I rememember taking the two to the vets to be put to sleep and her trying all sort sof things to see if they'd react all to no avail. My husband said never again, if we bred another deaf one we would stop breeding as it was so heartbreaking. We were lucky we had no more.

Last year I was involved with a litter of 12 born to sire and dam that had full hearing forebears a long way back but 4 of the litter were bilaterally deaf. This was the first litter for the breeder but she had her suspicions quite early on and asked for her four "suspects" to be tested first and she was right. They had spent hours playing outside in a large garden during a particularly sunny spell so slept wherever and whenever thye got tired, she had noticed that when she brought out the food these four didn't always appear.

I cannot understand why the breeder isn't taking advantage of the testing facilities now available but agree with all the others that at le3ast you should get yur pup tested before you take him. Interestingly enough it means your breeder is not a memeber of the BDC who host this forum as all memebers undertake to have their litters tested.

Good luck whatever happens. A new puppy, what a joy!
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Jeangenie



Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 2395
Location: Denial

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really can't understand why the breeder isn't taking responsibility for the puppies' (all the puppies in the litter) hearing status before they're sold. I think it's very unfair expecting you to cope with possible bad news when you've taken your puppy home and fallen in love with it. What heartbreak for you if it turns out that your puppy is deaf. Crying or Very sad

Howver nice the people might be I'd walk away if they're not prepared to have the litter tested.
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Dalamanti



Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Alnwick, Northumberland

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I don't post on here very often anymore but am slightly busy with my little spotty monkeys at the moment Laughing

When I got my first Dalmatian 12 years ago, he was not BAER hearing tested but I was approached by someone to use his services at stud. So on the back of this I said I would consider it but I had to get him BAER hearing tested first. Fortunately he did pass. I also had to check that the potential bitch was tested too. At the time I was not a breed club member but as an effort reduce the risk of breeding deaf dogs into the breed I insisited on this for all bitch owners who approached me.

When I bought my bitch for my foundation for my own lines several years later I contacted a very well respected breeder who has always insisted on all dogs and all litter mates being BAER hearing tested normal. From experience with my first boy I would never buy a dog that is not from hearing tested parents, or from someone who does not test. It is concerning why breeders don't test considering they must know it is an issue with our breed.

Of course as above said each to their own and they might have their reasons, but I can bet this breeder will be charging the same price for a puppy as other breeders who do test, so why are they not testing? And are the parents tested to ensure they are not unis?
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bryedal



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 692
Location: Forest of Dean/Gloucestershire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalamanti wrote:
Of course as above said each to their own and they might have their reasons, but I can bet this breeder will be charging the same price for a puppy as other breeders who do test, so why are they not testing? And are the parents tested to ensure they are not unis?

Hi Boeringer. I too would advise you to insist on seeing the certificates of hearing from the sire and dam of the puppies. If they haven't been tested then I wouldn't buy from that breeder.
Before testing was available, when I had a litter litter way back in the 70's, both parents were apparently hearing OK.
There were 9 pups born, 7 of which turned out to be totally deaf.
As you can imagine I was heartbroken and never bred from my girl again. The owner of the sire never used him again either.
Since testing began I now know that both the parents were probably Unilateral hearing.
Now I can't understand why Breeders don't test unless it is a case of they don't want to spend any more money on the litter. I wish that the Kennel Club would make it essential to have the BAER test made compulsory before they register the puppies.
Very sad memories.
Liz
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donothing



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 1190
Location: North

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: BAER testing Reply with quote

I agree in BAER testing and have had all my pups tested, and get angry when I know that the results will not be recorded by the Kennel Club even though it is clearly a health issue with the breed, and should we not be encouraging better health within the breed?.

However I am also conscious that some non breed club members do not hearing test for assorted reasons from ignorance, the costs, even though any responsible breeder should have allowed for the cost prior to the mating, to the distance needed to travel with a young litter.

It is OK for us who only have a two to three hours to travel to a BAER testing veterinary practice but what about those who have to travel the equivalant of half a day or further each way? they must think twice as it is not just the cost of the tests they need to account for but the fuel, possible hotel and the pups being away from home for a long time, for example if you live in some areas near the top of Scotland your nearest centre is Glasgow, after that another four to five hours to Boroughbridge or Manchester.

The mobile testing equipment is about 3000 plus import duty and it is a shame that several veternary practices could not get together an buy the equipment between them, or have a scheme to hire it.

I would love to see more education about the importance of hearing tests for Dalmatians, and for that matter any of the 35 breeds that should be tested, however I also beleive that the Kennel Club need to do their bit and record the test results as part of the health screening. Even better if they only allowed breeders to be classed as "Assured" if they do have all pups tested?

The funny thing is I got a "telling off" email from the KC because they did not have Phin's microchip number but was not asked if either Phin or Bailey were hearing tested? (yes they are)
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Boo'smum



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, brand spanking new on here but been lurking a little while (will do a proper 'hello' elsewhere. Anyway, just wanted to add that surely pup having blue eyes at four weeks is normal? My boy still had lovely baby blues at 5 weeks when I first met him (many, many moons ago) but they soon changed to a lovely golden green.
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