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Ireland joining the FCI, any views?

 
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jabbadal



Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 554
Location: Wiltshire, England

PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:01 am    Post subject: Ireland joining the FCI, any views? Reply with quote

Hi,

Thought I would start a new line of topic, in the hope that someone might be interested?!!! Confused

The Irish Kennel Club has recently voted to join the FCI (currently the overseeing body for dog shows in nearly every country bar UK, America and Australia.).

Although we will still have Green Stars (Irish equivilent of CC's), and the point system for Irish Champions still apply, When FCI C.A.C.I.B's (tickets needed for International Champion title) are on offer, this does mean judges will be judging to the FCI standard.

The Irish Dalmatian breed standard, does not differ greatly to the UK standard, however in my opinion the NEW FCI standard does.
If you wish to read it, just use your search engine (make sure it's the NEW updated standard), you can download it from somewhere (can't remember where Shocked ).

Not only does it ask for alot more 'tuck up' of under carriage than the UK/Irish standards, but it also recommends breeding from patches. Shocked (Yes, in the actual standard).

What do other people think?

Will we have to review our breeding goals to the new standard, producing (in my opinion), a whole different outline of Dalmatian to what we have in the past?

I personally feel, regardless of your views on breeding from patches to reduce deafness, that the STANDARD, is not the place for these recommendations.
Again, what do you think?

Obviously, Dalmatians bred in the current FCI countries can and have held their own, being judged under the UK standard. And I feel they have just as much quality. The new FCI standard must have affected them as well, as the older FCI standard was not so dissamiliar to what we have.

Thoughts, and posts and ideas please!!!!!

Jabbadal
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Jules
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiya
would love to see a copy of the standard but cant seem to be able to locate one myself. Does anyone know of the location ??
Jules xx
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saclegg



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 91
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:16 am    Post subject: F.C.I. Standard Reply with quote

There is a lot of information regarding the F.C.I. Standard on the E.C.D.C.web-site: //ecdc.org.
This site is the European Co-operation of Dalmatian Clubs' site and is in several languages. I can't remember what the title of the page is, but somewhere on that site is a list of recommendations which the E.C.D.C. has made to the F.C.I. Both the points about too much tuck- up and the advice to breed from patches are addressed in these recommendations. The British Dalmatian Club sent observers to the last meeting of the E.C.D.C. delegates (in San Remo April 2003) , so maybe the Irish Club(s) could do the same thing? Why not approach either the president or the secretaryand enquire? The next meeting will be on June 19th in Mechlin (Belgium) and will be followed by the E.C.D.C. show on the 20th and an international on the 21st. A Bientot? Sally et Les Dalmatiens de Puech Barrayre
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Les Dalmatiens de Puech Barrayre.
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Jules
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:18 am    Post subject: Breeding from Patches... Reply with quote

Hiya
i have just been reading the information on the ecdc site. Although that is what it says on the standard, it also has an extra page on which it explains in more detail what each point actually means. On here it says that the site is meant for jugdes as a guide (and is supposed to have pics on most of it-but they dont appear to be there!) On this it says about being suitable for breeding BUT then goes onto say it is very difficult to determine what actually is a patch or what is a bundle of spots close together Shocked and then goes onto say that people who bring them to shows should not be given a "0" incase they are not a patch - therfore opening the opotunity for the dog to be shown and do well, then presumably breed from.
It is still very unclear, and seems that is the case to them too. As on one page it states it is acceptable, and on the next not ! Confused

It also says deafness is a big no in all forms. Im not sure what our standard says about this, obviously we all strive to illiminate deafness, but does ours actually say you cannot breed from a uni deaf dog ?
Surely anyone who buys a puppy and is truly interested in the breed would know if it is a patch, or mearly heavy spotting ! And i would have thought surely the responsible breeder would certainly know !?! Mad
Anyway thats enough from me for now ! lol
Jules xxx
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jabbadal



Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 554
Location: Wiltshire, England

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 1:55 pm    Post subject: FCI Standard Reply with quote

Hi,

Hooray, response at last!!!

The breed clubs in Ireland are already working closely with the IKC on our admittance to full FCI membership and the standards that will affect us.
It's on going, so I will keep you posted!

My main concern is that the new standard could significantly change the Dalmatian in years to come in FCI countries, to the UK and the American Dalmatian. What a shame it would be, as travel is so much easier these days, that I worry that bringing in new blood lines to different countries could be lost, and different countries all have their own particular virtues prevalent in the majority of their Dalmatians that would be so useful to other countries.

The UK Kennel Club actually contains in it's F1 rules that a dog may be disqualifed from any award, if proved to be Deaf.
It doesn't say totally or partially deaf, and this rule is accross the board to all breeds judged under UK KC rules. No mention is made about breeding from a deaf dog.

At the moment it is just recommended that UNI deaf dogs are not bred from by the clubs, but I think this has not become a rule, so that an otherwise excellent specimen is not excluded from the gene pool, and so the choice is up to the individual.

Personally, I wouldn't breed from a Uni myself, but that is my personal choice.

It's great to have all your views, and it's certainly a topic worth discussing and debating.

Many thanks,

Jabbadal.
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Jules
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,

I see what you mean about other countries changing their dals in the long run, but also think that the British lines seem to be one of the best and most well looked upon in the world.
I know from our newest girls litter i think 3 littermates went abroad, and her dad has had his sperm sent abroad too !
I suppose it does depend on how far people want to go to get what they want in a dal.
We have been really lucky with our girl and didnt have to wait too long for her either.

I think some breeders have very defined objectives of their own dals and therefore keep their own values in their dogs, whereas other kennels seem to have a veriety of looks, and therefore somtimes can adapt to the changes more easily. I think Tradition rather than trend seems to be the best way really, with most British lines keeping the traditional carriage dog feel to the dal rather than some of the more pet type dals seen in some countries.

Hopefully the Traditional Carriage dog and our views of what that should look like will hold its own out there and people will look to our guidelines for guidance !!!

Gosh i do waffle when i get going ! lol Laughing
JUles xxxx
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saclegg



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 91
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:30 pm    Post subject: F.C.I. Standard Reply with quote

Hi! We wouldn't worry about mixing of genes and losing type. Since we have not been so isolated in mainland Europe our pedigrees show a greater variety of origins from many countries- including the U.K., U.S.A., Australia, South America etc. The "big" breeders, if they are careful, manage to evolve a recognisable type, but it is very much (as in the U.K.) a question of taste. The use of deaf subjects varies from country to country in Europe. In France it is recommended not to use unis (and I wouldn't either!) but in Spain and in Norway they have no hearing test centres so I imagine some must slip under the net. I personally think we have a large enough gene pool that we can afford to exclude unis from breeding, but unless is made compulsory (as in Germany and Switzerland) folk will always argue that their own animal has qualities which justify reproduction. I think the "bait" would be to mark bilateral hearing on the pedigree. This means of course, that the puppy must be identifiable at the time of its test. It begins to open up all sorts of debate!
:wink:Sally
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81170 Milhars . France.
Les Dalmatiens de Puech Barrayre.
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jabbadal



Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 554
Location: Wiltshire, England

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for debate!! Laughing

I think that any country has to be very careful when it has a very high opinion of it's dogs that they don't become too complacent. Particularly if the gene pool has been fairly limited to it's own country for quite some time.
This is not a critisim, but merely a cautionary warning. Wink
I have found in my personal experience, that it is so refreshing to see many of the european countries striving forward leaps and bounds to improve their stock. They seem less wary of bringing in new blood lines and much more open and aware of the faults and health worries that may be present and therefore in a informed position to do something about it.
To my mind, this is why the quality of breeding abroad has recently been very high. Interesting to see foreign dogs come in and beat the 'homegrown'!!
Having lived in England/Ireland/Austria and America and having seen the Dalmatians in each country, I can see that although they seem to go through phases, there are times when one particular country will have a high percentage of Dalmatians in the rings that all lack in one particular point (likewise, they can also nearly all excel in another particular point). Another country can be the opposite.
I would love to see that all the countries could quite happily bring in different lines to improve their stock from time to time. Because, aren't we all aiming at the end of the day to benefit the Dalmatian itself?

Just an opinion!!!

(Now, which country shall I go to next for a stud dog?!!!!! Wink)

Jabbadal
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Jules
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiya
If only people were more honest and open with the faults of their lines !!! Not only with deafness - as another pole on this site states there are many breeders who have used the same pups to get good hearing test results on paper etc. and im sure many more who hide things.
Not only deafness, but bad temprement Twisted Evil and a whole host of other things.
I think it would be great to be able to go abroad to breed openly knowing everyone had simalar goals to improve our breed.
JUles xx
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saclegg



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 91
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Ireland joining the FCI - any views? Reply with quote

I have just been re-reading the contributions to Jabbadal's question and am minded to say I must echo Jules' wistful comment about being open and honest.....
In August 2005 at the ECDC meeting a request was made for information about cases of mega-oesophagus. This request was made in order to try and establish the mode of inheritance so that producing pups with this unhappy defect can be avoided. It seems that the U.K. has been peculiarly silent on this matter altho' the request appears on this web-site (in the report of the ECDC meeting in archived News) and was also printed in "Spots". Dalmatian breeders from all over Europe and also New Zealand have made contributions. Are we to believe that this condition has never been seen in the U.K.? Or is it not recognised? Cool Or what....?
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Les Dalmatiens de Puech Barrayre.
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